2005 Ford F250/6.0L Hot Start - FIXED

[liljoe]

I have seen failures with out codes on these, look for a nice even pattern on the crank sensor with one double wide place on it. I happen to have a pic I took of a screen running the pico scope (on a friends computer)with the crank sensor hooked up on two traces, ( you could do one trace and it will be OK too) the scope was hooked up with the lead from each of two channels hooked up to the sensor and the ground lead from the scope hooked to ground. The way I like to hook to them is just one channel and hook both leads to the scope like normal, but this will give you a good idea of what the crank sig should look like.

6oh crank signal.jpg (74.04 KiB) Viewed 9362 times

[Tim Martin]

I would have thought that it would be a square wave.

Thanks alot for the picture. It sure is nice to be able to use technology like this to aid in our work. I have the truck here so I will scope them. By the way, is both sensor signals the same?

[liljoe]

Yes, they are both magnetic signal generators. Hope some of this helps you out, I have several pics of different things on those, and would be glad to share if needed.

[Tim Martin]

Hey ok. This info helps me out greatly. I was thinking that perhaps somewhere on this forum there could be a section of known good wave signals that could be viewed. But yes, your input is greatly appreciated.

[liljoe]

Here, this has lots of good and bad waveforms to see.....

http://www.picoauto.com/automotive-library.html

[Tim Martin]

Will poke around when I get time.

Thanks.

[ricmorin]

If I want to check the cam and crank sensors with my lab scope, what am I looking for? I mean what kind of signal? I have not checked these sensors on the diesels yet? I have also suspicioned them as possible faults aas well although I would a thunk that they may set a code if not functioning as they should.

If you're a member of iAtn, you can view this waveform here....

http://members.iatn.net/file/view/?id=44138&detailed=1

If not, I suggest you join. There's a wealth of knowledge out there.

[protraxrptr17]

I work on tons of these. The first thing I would do would be to pull the IPR and look at the screen on the end. If it is concave, tell the customer that he needs an IPR, and a new screen that goes under the oil cooler. Strongly suggest replacing the oil cooler and egr cooler. While you are there, make a fitting by cutting off an old IPC sensor and welding on a shop air quick connect. With the intake off, screw your fitting into the sensor fitting hole and hook up an air hose. Hook a jumper hot and ground to the NEW IPR to close it. Listen for leaks. Some leakage will be heard in the HPOP cover. If you hear it under the valve covers or out of the intake or exhaust you got o-ring problems. The 05 06 models had some snap to connect problems. You can easily check that while you have the intake off. I would bet my paycheck a new IPR and screen would fix it right up. 99 percent of those screens I check have come apart and jacked up the IPR. I have a routine maintenance package I try to sell to all my 6.0 customers which includes a new IPR, new screen, new oil cooler, new egr cooler or blocker, turbo recondition, flash updates, and a new IPC sensor and harness for 03 models. Almost all of the 6.0 no start issues I have had end up being the IPR and it usually fails because of the rinky dink screen under the cooler. Let us know.

[Tim Martin]

With that maintainance package you mentioned, do you find many takers for it. I mean, obviously a service including that has a substantial cost for the owner. I have wondered about the feasibility of such a package deal for other vehicles also. And I wonder how the vehicle owners would take to it.

[steven kiser]

I work on tons of these. The first thing I would do would be to pull the IPR and look at the screen on the end. If it is concave, tell the customer that he needs an IPR, and a new screen that goes under the oil cooler. Strongly suggest replacing the oil cooler and egr cooler. While you are there, make a fitting by cutting off an old IPC sensor and welding on a shop air quick connect. With the intake off, screw your fitting into the sensor fitting hole and hook up an air hose. Hook a jumper hot and ground to the NEW IPR to close it. Listen for leaks. Some leakage will be heard in the HPOP cover. If you hear it under the valve covers or out of the intake or exhaust you got o-ring problems. The 05 06 models had some snap to connect problems. You can easily check that while you have the intake off. I would bet my paycheck a new IPR and screen would fix it right up. 99 percent of those screens I check have come apart and jacked up the IPR. I have a routine maintenance package I try to sell to all my 6.0 customers which includes a new IPR, new screen, new oil cooler, new egr cooler or blocker, turbo recondition, flash updates, and a new IPC sensor and harness for 03 models. Almost all of the 6.0 no start issues I have had end up being the IPR and it usually fails because of the rinky dink screen under the cooler. Let us know.

great tip, thanks a lot.

[protraxrptr17]

Tim, it is really surprising how many customers go for it. I find that most of them had had so many problems and had so many shops doing costly experiments on their trucks, that they feel really good about the confidence I show when I pitch the sale. If you do all those things, it really helps the reliability of these trucks. New trucks getting over $60K have helped me make these sales too. I get about 12 hours labor and make a pretty good profit on parts too because my local dealer cuts me a deal. When you have done a few, you can shave the job down pretty good. I can usually do '04+ trucks in about 7 hours. There is money to be made working on these when you get a good understanding of how they work. They are a lot easier to diagnose than the common rail engines in my opinion. Just make sure you charge for it. Too many of us give away our diagnostic time.

Always check the FICM volts too. Any less than about 44V needs replaced. GOOD batteries are necessary too.

[Tim Martin]

I agree that alot of diagnostic time is given away and I guess in our business there will always be a certain amount of that. But I look at it this way. If I am going to make the customer spend say $3,000.00 of his money or whatever the figure is, I as the shop owner sure do not want that truck coming back for the same complaint. And so, I would rather risk the loss of some diag time for the sake of assurance that the complaint is addressed rather than postponed. However, the other side is that by upselling maintainence packages such as you are proposing would somewhat lower the need for diag time in the future. I am not sure how that is. But admittedly, on these engines, there is alot of billable hours goes into diagnostics and repairs. For me, the major issue seems to be isolating the location of high pressure oil leaks.

By the way, does anybody have any experience with REV-X oil additive for these engines?

[steven kiser]

another little diddy here is i've found that when i'm explaining to a customer that the vehicle they have has a long list of specific fail points i suggest that they google it. fords are good example. i had a person recommended to me with a f150 with a failed transmission at 80k. i called with a price and was ready to explain the transmission issue and was told that he had already googled it and didn't need a sales pitch. i'm finding more and more the internet is my friend. i use the virtual repair web sight from car quest and my customers love it. have this person google this engine and read all the common fail points. i think the up sell will be a bit easier.

[protraxrptr17]

Yeah, that hurts us and helps us at the same time. I have customers come in here all the time thinking they are experts because they read something on the web. Its also bad when they look up parts. Lost a sale on a set of injectors for a LLY Duramax yesterday because of ebay. I told him I would install whatever injectors he brought, but if they have problems, he will be responsible.

[Tim Martin]

Yeah, that hurts us and helps us at the same time. I have customers come in here all the time thinking they are experts because they read something on the web. Its also bad when they look up parts. Lost a sale on a set of injectors for a LLY Duramax yesterday because of ebay. I told him I would install whatever injectors he brought, but if they have problems, he will be responsible.

Yes, I also experience the same problem of customers getting their parts on ebay. I have mixed feelings about it cause on one hand, while I do not offer any warranty on customer supplied parts and if the job needs to be done again, the customer pays twice which is more money in my pocket. On the other hand, I can't afford to have my schedule messed up by customers wanting to have their less costly parts installed. So, I continue on doing what I do best - working.

[steven kiser]

i'm dealing with one right now. not a ford but an e/bay purchase. my policy is simple, customer supplied part i add 25% to labor cost, part fails, vehicle goes outside and is scheduled in when part is in my hand. if customer wants to take vehicle i get extra to completely assemble. part goes in and fails later i will schedule when the customer supplies another one. i will charge for disgnostic services to make sure that the part is at fault. i make the customer shoulder their responsibility.

[protraxrptr17]

Yeah I have a few customers that I actually PREFER they bring their own parts. They cry and complain so much that it takes a load off me if the part ever does fail.

[steven kiser]

amen to that.................we all have them. or at least to a point. i've pointed some in the direction of shops that will repair the car the way the customer sees fit.

[NPASC_mike]

If I want to check the cam and crank sensors with my lab scope, what am I looking for? I mean what kind of signal? I have not checked these sensors on the diesels yet? I have also suspicioned them as possible faults aas well although I would a thunk that they may set a code if not functioning as they should.

Been reading some of these 6.0 threads as we have one here with a no start condition. spent 10 hours fixing things someone else "fixed" ( wiring in new pigtails backwards ect.)
Had a intermittent loss of crank signal that we fixed by replacing the pigtail. We are using the NGS on this, but I think a generic scanner will have a PID showing cam/crank in sync with a yes or no answer. I was heading where you're going when I saw this PID and the pigtail fixed it ( previous person working on it boogered up the pins) I dont think you need to use the scope on them to check them. ( although I know it's a sure fire way... but the crank sensor is buried under the A/C compressor.) If you get a "Yes" to cam/crank in sync I dont think you have a sensor issue.

[liljoe]

If I want to check the cam and crank sensors with my lab scope, what am I looking for? I mean what kind of signal? I have not checked these sensors on the diesels yet? I have also suspicioned them as possible faults aas well although I would a thunk that they may set a code if not functioning as they should.

Been reading some of these 6.0 threads as we have one here with a no start condition. spent 10 hours fixing things someone else "fixed" ( wiring in new pigtails backwards ect.)
Had a intermittent loss of crank signal that we fixed by replacing the pigtail. We are using the NGS on this, but I think a generic scanner will have a PID showing cam/crank in sync with a yes or no answer. I was heading where you're going when I saw this PID and the pigtail fixed it ( previous person working on it boogered up the pins) I dont think you need to use the scope on them to check them. ( although I know it's a sure fire way... but the crank sensor is buried under the A/C compressor.) If you get a "Yes" to cam/crank in sync I dont think you have a sensor issue.

I have pics of its location along with the easiest way I found to change them, just yell if ya need them....